In the case of Sydney B. Sperry and other learned men of the Church who profess their knowledge, learning and understanding of the Book of Mormon, we have come to such a situation in my opinion. Learning, knowledge and understanding from God comes by faith and the exercise there of, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. And when one cannot or does not exercise faith, acceptance and understanding of the first line or precept given, then the chain of further understanding of a matter is broken by the lack of faith and acceptance of the first precept given.
This I believe to be the case in terms of the geography of the Book of Mormon. And I believe that according to our first rejection of accepting without question the first premise that the Lord has given on this topic has led us into a condition where by his grace he has declared a moritorium for our benefit on requiring us to have obtained such an understanding by the exercise of faith from one line to the next, from one precept to the next. And to avoid our comtemation for lack of understanding, he has proclaimed that we do not need to know at this time until we can retrace and once again become as a little child in the matter and accept the first line given by faith upon which we can build.
Consider the possition of the Church through time from the very beginning of the Chruch til now. Early authorities of the church have recorded that Joseph Smith was told by the Angel Moroni that the hill from which the golden plates where taken was the Hill Cumorah. We have record in the history of the Prophet Joseph Smith written by his mother which quotes Joseph as stating in 1827 that the hill was that of Cumorah. And we have numerous quotations to this effect from the General Authorities of the Church through time done to President Romney and even leters to Bishoprics from the Office of the First Presidency to the effect. That in a sense is the first line given in the line upon line concept of receiving knowledge from heaven concerning the geography of the Book of Mormon. That is a beginning, that is point one on a map of understanding.
Yet today, the 'professors' of religious learning in our Church such as are represented by those of FARMS and the likes of Sydney B. Sperry have rejected the first line of this understanding in lew of their own dissection of the matter. Dr. Sydney B. Sperry seems to fit the classic example of once back in 1947 fully accepting that Cumorah was Cumorah when he was writing with simple faith Sunday School manuals for Book of Mormon Study for the Church. Then in latter years (1968) he completely reverses his possition of understanding having examined and analyzed the information at hand himself and according to his own dissections of the matter determined his own past position as being one that was 'very credulous' and 'completely ridiculous.' Thus the learned understanding over came the simple exercise of faith in the matter.
From this perspective, is it any wonder that the current position of the Church is that it does not officially supply or sanction any geographic map of the Book of Mormon? In my mind it is a position of 'Grace' in the matter. We are currently 'exempt' from having to have that understanding as would be developed by the exercise of faith because as a body we have basically rejected the 'given' first line or precept in the matter that the Hill Cumorah of the Nephites and the Hill Ramah of the Jaredites is that very hill in the area of Palmyra, New York from which Joseph Smith was given the plates by the hand of the Angel Moroni from 1824 to 1827. Now the Lord could condemn us for such a rejection by the lack of our faith of such knowledge given us. Or his could place a 'moritorium' of exemption for us having to accept and understand it.
Learning, reason, and logic are a dangerous thing particularly when such academic prowess thwarts the things and understanding of God. For example, wherein is the logic, reason, and learning of the Universal Flood of Noah or the divideing of the the earth in the days of Peleg? The Ivory Halls of Academic Science out and out reject it. The likelihood of a universal flood covering the entire surface of the earth is academicly 'nil.' And what is the likelihood of one man with three sons gathering together in a big boat all the species of the surface animals enough to regenerate the animals of all the earth as the Bible proclaims occurred? The possibility of this is zero probability from an academic frame of logic, reason, examination, and analysis. Thus the learned professor of his own wits must profess to reject it. But thus is faith. Did it happen? Yes. Does it fit the logic, understanding and intellectual prowess of the learned man? No.
So it is with Cumorah. We have been told and retold where Cumorah is. Does it fit according to a detailed examination and analysis of the information found in the Book of Mormon? No. So the learned rejected assuming they have access to all wisdom, knowledge and learning of the matter. But their primise is faulty. The Book of Mormon is only a condensed, abridged, reader's digest work with only a hundredth part of the information of the available records given. What learned scientist would give such a dissection analysis and conclusion of the basis of 1% of the information? Yet they do so not only in respect to the Book of Mormon but in respect to the world and the universe as well.
Now on which basis are you ready to accept the first given varifiable location of the geography of the Book of Momorn? Line one, precept one where Cumorah is Cumorah, being the hill so stated by Moroni to Joseph Smith as understood by all the early church leaders and mother of the Prophet. Or are you still prepared to accept the dissection of examination and anaylsis and the resulting professed ascertation of the matter by the professor of religion? Dr. Sydney B. Sperry is a renoun professor of religion in BYU history and in religious graduate studies. Today yearly symposiums of religion are held at BYU in his name. He has written many scholarly works about acient scripture and is well respected. I am no one of consequence, a mere member of the LDS Chruch. So how can I record a 'Fall From Grace' and submit a negative treaties on Dr. Sperry? Well one must read and consider to find out. Dr. Sperry certainly was an academic 'authority' due to his position and long standing at Brigham Young Univerity. And he certainly knew a lot more that I will every know. But I do have a bone to pick with Brother Sperry as I believe he has done a mis-service to the Church and to his graduate students over the years in one very serious respect. And it is often that such a single 'seed' can grow into giants of proportions which otherwise would not have grown except the initial planting and cultivating of the seedling over the years. And not that Brother Sperry has fallen from the grace of God or has lost his eternal salvation, for such is not the charge here. But that what he has done in this one respect, has molded a present condition that it would be better if it had not ever been existant.
In 1947 when Sydney B. Sperry was writing approved Sunday School manuals for the Church and his first books on the Book of Mormon (of which I have copies), Sydney B. Sperry was of the mind and conviction that the Hill Cumorah was the Hill Cumorah. And that it was the one and only Hill Cumorah just as the Chruch had always stated. Then that all changed and with the preparation of his Volume entitled 'Book of Mormon Compendium' published by Bookcraft in 1968 he so stated it. What had happened is hard to say. But what is obvious is that Sydney became overly involved with figuring out the geography of the Book of Mormon. And suddenly what the leaders of the Church had been saying was no longer good enough as Sydney became smarter than that.
I can only report in Brother Sperry's own words what his conclusion and assessment was based upon.
From the Preface of his book:
In this volume I have reversed my views, held many years ago, that the Hill Cumorah, around which the last great battles of the Nephites and Jaredites took place, was in the State of New York. The book of Mormon data are very clear and show quite conclusively that the Hill (Ramah to the Jaredites) was in the land of Desolation, somewhere in Middle America. I have summed up my arguments and conclusions in connection with the discussion of Mormon, Chapter 6. My conclusions have been tested in a number of classes of graduate students who were challenged to demonstrate their falsity. Up to the present time, no one has done so. The Hill Cumorah in New York, from which the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the Nephite plates, may have been so named by Moroni in commemoration of the Cumorah in the land of Desolation, around which his father and fellow Nephites lost their lives in their last struggles with the Lamanites.
(Sidney B. Sperry, Book of Mormon Compendium [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1968], 6 - 7.)
Then in Chapter 23, not Chapter 6, Dr. Sperry does sum up his arguments. Now Dr. Sperry may have meant chapter 6 of Mormon and not chapter 6 of his book. In which case, he never did state where in his book this was to be found. Now if Dr. Sperry is as careless in writing his preface, making chapter 23, chapter 6, then what are we to expect? Though I am firmly of the opinion that men can argue the pros and cons of the entire earth and never agree upon them, as I personally learned from High School debate, I will attempt to answer Dr. Sydney's challenge. But I would expect that regardless of what answer I would give, excepting a revelation from God, that my response would not be enough to convince any from their pre-determined position unwillingly, especially Dr. Sidney B. Sperry. I've seen it too often in the mission field and in life in general to suppose anything else. Men of a set disposition do not change regardless of the evidence to the contrary. They do always tend to contrive around it. But perhaps I can give those who would be influence by the winds of public consensus a place where on they may stand against such winds.
Let it be said that I find the very premises of the points to be rebutted as put forth by Dr. Sperry subjectively contrived and poorly stated to allow any real objective treatment of his thesis. Such a biased statement of conjecture as I've found here would never withstand the rigors of objectivity proposed by the thesis writers of the University where I performed by graduate work. There is just too much sand and preconceived opinion in his very premise of his challenge statenebts to begin with. It is as if his challenge is forcing one to build upon shifting sands of the un-factual to begin with. There is no solid objective hypothesis statement to deal with from the 'get go' in Sydney's proposed challenge.
I have listed Sydney's challenge from his own book item by item, six items in all. I have taken the liberty of highlighting in red what I consider the critical and often faulty matters in his hypothesis in each of his points which do not allow for a fair and objective treatment of his challenge. And I have answered each of his points in blue including a statement of 'prolog' to the whole basic myopic premise of his challenge.
I will attempt, in my own manner and way to complete Sydney's challenge. Below I will quote from Dr. Sperry's book chapter 23 as indicated by indented paragraphs. In red highlight, I will note what I consider to be the critical concepts that Dr. Sydney B. Sperry puts forth which are the real center of the matter at hand. And in blue, I will present my own response to the challenge as it moves along from Dr. Sperry's text. The indented paragraphs are Dr. Sperry's.
It is now my very carefully studied and considered opinion that the Hill Cumorah to which Mormon and his people gathered was somewhere in Middle America. The Book of Mormon evidence to this effect is irresistible and conclusive to one who will approach it with an open mind. The evidence has been reviewed by a few generations of bright students in graduate classes who have been given the challenge to break it down if they can. To date none has ever been able to do so. Let us now sum up the main evidence, part of which has already been considered in earlier pages. It is a well-known fact to all Book of Mormon students that the Hill Cumorah around which the last great battles to the Nephite took place was the very same hill around which the last great battles of the Jaredites were fought (Ether 15:11). We shall therefore also present the evidence found in the Book of Ether.
Prolog: Dr. Sperry has already established the
results he will accept from his student challenge. 'His' evidence is
'irresistible' and 'conclusive' to 'anyone' who will approach it with an
'open mind.' This means that if 'I' or any 'student' does not accept the
'facts' as he states
them, then 'I' or any 'student' must not have an 'open mind.' In a court room
this might be termed 'leading the witness.' Certainly if Dr. Sperry states
the primise that 'anyone who is opened minded must find the Book of Mormon
evidence irresistible and conclusive that Cumorah is in Middle
America,' the bias of the premises statement is obviously leading and skewed,
and thus removing any objectivity in the matter by such a subjective statement.
This stated in the 'negative would be to say, 'If you do not find that
Cumorah is in Middle America, then you are closed minded. This is a biased
premise statement forcing the student to be judged closed minded if they do
not agree with Sydney. So I guess I am closed minded. Or is Sydney?
Thus since Dr. Sperry has
already made his own myopic prejudgment statement on the matter, he has lost his own
objectivity on the matter. He has lost his own open mindedness on the matter.
And he is not in any position at any level to be able to judge the matter
of another's submitted response with objectivity and fairness. This is
confirmed by the fact that in item 5 of his challenge, Dr. Sperry states that
one would have to be 'very credulous'
and 'completely ridiculous' not to concur with 'his' evidence as 'he'
presents it. And he has just predetermined and prejudiced his own 'mind set'
against any who even attempt to answer his challenge in any way but to agree
with him. This in effect is not
only an attack of not allowing his students any objective attempt at his
challenge, but a slanderous conclusion of contempt against any
intelligent and learned scholar of the Book of Mormon who believes otherwise,
including all General Authorities past, present and future who so 'very
credulously' and 'completely ridiculously' could so maintain any opinion that
is not Sydney's own on the matter. Talk about being completely 'closed minded'
about a matter. And what is ironic indeed, is that back in 1947, Dr. Sydney
B. Sperry wrote Sunday School manuals for the LDS Church which proported
Cumorah to be Cumorah in New York. Now, of course, that must
have been back when he himself, Dr. Sperry was 'very credulous' and 'completely
ridiculous' too. Because at that time he was completely of the opposite opinion
than what he now asserts to be. So any student who must take upon himself the 'mantel' of 'academic' prowess must concur with Sydney or else he is simple minded, naïve, unsophisticated, green, gullible, unsuspicious, unwary, and very credulous. In other words they would have to be believing, trustful, child like, exercising faith in, open, and innocent. And except they become as little children, they cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Thus it is, Dr. Sperry, more difficult for one who is learned and wise in the ways of the world to enter into the Kingdom of heaven. Like the rich man and the eye of the needle, the learned of the earth must remove from themselves the load of 'academic prowess' and 'worldly learning and knowledge.' They must accept by faith the word of God and follow God's prophets faithfully as a child, trusting and believing. Such was the fall of Oliver, Sydney, David, and others of the early church as their own worldly wisdom and logic was greater than the 'weakness' of the anointed of the Lord. Thus any day, I will believe a Marion G. Romney over a Sydney B. Sperry or
a John L. Sorenson. And sad is the day if any such 'anointed' of the Lord
set aside their simple faith in the Word of God's wisdom and turn to the
'learned of the earth' for the resolution to the things which are of God. It
is sad to me that Brother Sydney B. Sperry was once upon a time one such who
believed as the child. But he has become as the learned of the earth
trusting more in his own understanding and interpretation of a matter than
that of the word of God given by way of his servants. For whether it be by
the mouth of God or by his servants, it is the same. Therefore, regardless of Dr. Sperry's six points made hereafter based on
such a premise, the answer is had in the Book of Mormon, Student Manual, put
out by the Church for the Institute classes of Religion 121 and 122, on page
136. It is there that the quote from Marion G. Romney is given
concerning the Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, New York being the vicinity of the
Jaredite demise some 2500 years ago. And thus the Hill Cumorah in the state
of New York is the Nephite Hill Cumorah and they are one and the same.
Joseph Smith had called it the Hill Cumorah as recorded as early as 1827
according to the History of the Prophet by his mother (see The Pearl of Great
Price Student Manual, Religion 327, page 62.) And any number of other early
church member are quotable as so establishing that the Angel Moroni told
Joseph that is was the Hill Cumorah, and they add their testimony to the
effect that it is that hill in New York state. Yet for the persistent on the matter, I will honor and humor them further
by answering Sydney's challenge as ill founded in prejudice that it is. In
this I suppose myself to be the fool as even the General Authorities do not
stoop to undertake such a 'contentious' challenge as Sydney has established.
1. The implications of Omni 20-21. The last king of the Jaredites, Coriantumr, was found by the people of Zarahemla (Mulekites). Zarahemla was far in the "land southward," in Middle America. Coriantumr sojourned with the Mulekites "nine moons" and was buried by them (Ether 13:21). Since we know that Coriantumr was a battle-worn man and had been deeply wounded in the great battles of the Jaredites (Ether 14:12, 30; Ether 15:9,27), just how reasonable is it to believe that in his condition he would travel about three thousands miles from a battlefield near the Hill Cumorah in New York (assuming it was there) to the land of Zarahemla in Middle America? What motives could lead him to make such a journey? Isn't it much more reasonable to believe that the Mulekites in the land of Zarahemla found the old man (or sick man, for he lived but nine months) a reasonably short distance from the scene of his last battle? If so, the Hill Ramah-Cumorah was in Middle America.
Answer One: Dr. Sperry already lays a basis which
declares Zarahemla to be in Middle America and forces the student to comply
on that basis offering no plausible alternative. And the sandy foundation
begins to be laid. And as for reason, reason is as what one of an opinion
makes it to be in many cases. And thus reason becomes as the waves of the sea,
tossed to and fro by the winds of personal opinion rather than by the truth of
the matter. In life, often what is reasonable is not the truth of the
matter, because real life is full of unreasonable surprise that logic would
never be able to predict, but they are so and the truth of the matter just
the same. Was it reasonable for the Jaredites to kill one another? Was it
reasonable for Cain to kill Abel after having spoken with God?
First, there were no lands called desolation
before the Nephites called them such. There was just the lands of the
Jaredites. And these lands 'of desolation' had been swept clean containing
the dead of the battles upon the land extending from the extreme southern
reaches of the Jaredite northern land, which bordered on the narrow neck, and from
thence to the extreme northern regions of the great Jaredite nations.
Having the land swept clean before Shiz in a scorched earth strategy, the
land was without vegetation and trees, and the animals vacated the lands to
find food in the land south.
The last great battle fields of the Jaredites had dead bodies heaped up and
was a very unsanitary place to exist if one could exist there at all.
Certainly both Ether and Coriantumr got themselves out of that stinking
germ infested land of the dead of the last great battles. Battle wounds heal.
Tired and exhausted men recover. Mormon was over 80 years old and had fought
in wars against the Lamanites since the age of 16. Mormon was seriously
wounded in that great 'last' battle of the Nephites at Cumorah. Yet Mormon not
only live beyond that battlefield, but as an 80+ year old man, he lived and
recoverd, and he fought again. And he was, according to Moroni's record, not
killed until he was found engaging is a later subsequent battle against the
Lamanites.
Coriantumr was a large man, a mighty man, and the final one standing. Even
in his most exhausted state, he had strength to raise himself up and smite
the head of his enemy clean off. That alone testifies that his wounds where
not of the debilitating type that would preclude a full recovery from what
wounds he may have had and the exhaustion he was suffering from at the
moment. Once rested and somewhat healed, there is every logical reason to
believe that Coriantumr did get himself up and out of that horrid land and
scene of death around and about the land and hills of Ramah or Cumorah. In
fact there is every motivation for him to want to get out of there.
It is a sad and whoaful scenario to consider, but the human need for human
companionship would have been a very compiling motivation all of its own.
His thoughts would have wondered and pondered, 'Is it really true? Are we
all dead? Isn't there some one somewhere still alive that hid themself or
that we per chance by-passed and missed in this our insanity?' And his
relentless compulsive search would have began and he would have retraced the
entire land and the courses that the battles took to look for some sign of
life. Isn't someone yet alive? Ether was still alive, but we have no
record that the courses of these last two men ever crossed again.
Coriantumr would have not have ended his search until he reached the very
southern limit of the land of the Jaredites. What a tiring and exhaustive
relentless search it would have been, What an emotional spent and crazed man
of loneliness was there left to be discovered by the Mulekites who had landed
where once the Phonecians had traded with the Americas for cocaine, hash and
tobacco?
It is a much more reasonable 'meeting place and conclusion' that with all of
the land of the Jaredites, the Mulekites and Coriantumr crossed paths about a
once great city of commerce than upon some remote battlefield and inland hill.
Just how did the Mulekites just happen to stumble across the one last sole survivor? Reason
here says that Coriantumr and the landing Mulekites had one thing in common,
they where both drawn to the same site. Coriantumr drawn ever southward
until he reached the last Jaredite city before passing to the uninhabited land
southward. And the hand of the Lord brought the Mulekites to where they could
find the remaining animals of the Jaredites for their survival. (See essay
on the Mulekite's landing site - Mormon's Internal Map presentation.)
Coriantumr had finally found life. But it was not the life he had searched
for. Perhaps more devastating than dying in the last Jaredite battle was the
fate of Coriantumr. His worst fear had been confirmed. It was true! All of
his millions of people where dead. No Jaredite was left living. And he was
in part, the cause of the tragedy. All he had
found was a foriegn speaking sea colony of strange people. Broken hearted,
guilt ridden, and emotionally and mentally spent, it is of no little wonder
that Coriantumr soon died, 9 months after being 'found' by the Mulekites.
What the rigors of war could not do to such a large and mighty man as
Coriantumr, this final state of mind racked pain had done. Coriantumr was
dead.
2. The implications of Mosiah 8:7-12; Alma 22:30-32. When King Limhi's men found a land covered with bones of men and beasts, ruins of buildings and remains of weapons for war (Mosiah 8:8-11), they had happened upon the last battlefields and ruined remains of Jaredite civilization in the land Desolation (Alma 22:30), clearly in Middle America. That this is the case is also made more sure by the fact that they found the twenty-four plates of Ether which were expressly hidden by that Jaredite prophet in such a way that the men of Limhi found them (Mosiah 8:9; Ether 15:33). Now, if the last battlefield of the Jaredites was around and about the Hill Ramah-Cumorah in New York, it would be necessary to believe that Limhi's men traveled about six thousand miles altogether in their attempts to find the land of Zarahemla, a distance completely unreasonable to assume when we consider that the elder Alma brought his group of Zeniff's people to the land of Zarahemla in twelve days (Mosiah 24:23-25). And if Alma's group had taken twenty days, to make up for any difference in position as compared with Limhi's people (cf. Mosiah 23:3), they would have traveled only about four hundred miles (at the rate of 20 miles per day) to come to Zarahemla. In view of these facts, isn't it reasonable to assume that the Hill Ramah-Cumorah was in Middle America, somewhere in the very conservative range of 400 to 500 miles from Zarahemla?
Answer Two: Before one jumps right in and bites
the opinion biased and leading proposed challenge of point number 2, one must
consider the 'assumed opinionated' basis of how the point is proposed and the
conclusion it unwittingly leads to if followed, the Mesoamerican theory. Now
the Mesoamerican 'theory' to work places the Hill Cumorah within about
the distance that such a placed 'narrow neck' is wide, about 100 miles from
the proposed 'narrow neck of land'. Cross that with the fact that the
proposed 'narrow neck of land' is recorded in the Book of Mormon to take only
one to one and a half days journey to cross and that would place the Central
American Cumorah at that same comparable distance. So the 'unwitting'
conclusion is that the Hill Cumorah is about a 'day and a half journey' from
the 'narrow pass' which leads from the land south? 'GET REAL!'
What possible military advantage could Mormon have ever hoped to have gained
by placing himself and his last quarter to half million surviving Nephites
within a few days march from all of the resources of the Lamanites? Mormon
was or a 'military mind'. He had previously engineered three successful
defenses against the Lamanites over his previous career. He was a student of
the great Captain Moroni and had studied those great military strategies.
Mormon would not make such a military blunder as placing his remaining troops
within the grasp of the Lamanite stronghold and expect any advantage from it.
In truth, Mormon would not have planted his people in the midst of the
Lamanites. If one follows the real logic that the Lamanites over the last 10
years had come into the land north of the narrow neck of land, 'sweeping the
Nephites off of the land before them as the dew before the sun' how could the
Nephites still be, after 10 such years, within a couple of day's journey of
the narrow neck and the by then Lamanite strongholds based out of the old
lands of Zarahamela? Now, that is the better question for what is
logical to consider.
And consider the wisdom of rounding up all the Nephites from exceedingly
great distances such as Zelph's battle in Illinois and the land of many
waters (Helaman 3:4) which if not Cumorah, was also an 'exceeding
great distance away and contained many Nephites that would have had to been
gathered up and brought all the way back down those thousands of miles. Even
Sperry granted that such outlaying far distant lands of the Nephites did so
exist. And all this just to offer themselves to the Lamanites on a proposed
Cumorah plater within a few days march of the strength of the main lands of
the Lamanites and in the mist of all the Lamanite conquered lands?. That is
the 'unwitting' unreasonableness here.
Further, for the poorly contrived basis of this point. Nowhere in the Book
of Mormon does it state that Limhi's expedition had stumbled on to the last
battlefields of Ramah. That Dr. Sperry led his students into accepting by
accepting the biased premise of his challenge. The whole of the two national
lands of the Jaredites had been a battlefield of mass extinction and
desolation from the city of trade and commerce located right upon the narrow
neck pass which led into the land southward to the far reaches of Ramah. Shiz
would sweep the land clean before him as he went on with a scorched earth
policy which would leave no trees or forests for Nephite building construction
when they final began to occupy the land northward. Those who would not join
him where trashed. Bodies where found from the very southern most city of
the Jaredites northward. Just how far Limhi's expedition traveled into the
land is of no real consequence and it does not have to have reached very far
at all to have come upon the dead and destroyed cities.
As for Ether's record, Ether would have kept that in tow with him. And what
is more reasonable? Ether would have been charged by God to carry his 24
plates, not an overly burdensome task, back to where the Nephites would one
day find them or for Moroni to carry his more burdensome 'buddle' all the way
up to New York? Moroni would have to carry all of the plates with him.
That would have included the Small Plates of Nephi and the abridged plates of
Mormon's records. His task would have included the sealed plates which where
two thirds of the stack of plates and which may not have only included Ether's
24 but Mosiah's translation of them as well. And it would have included the
Urim and Thummim and the breastplate that accompanied them. Which was the
heavier and more burdensome load to carry? Moroni's would have been and Ether
didn't have to dodge about the land hiding from Lamanites bent on killing him
if they found him. Certainly it would have been easier for Ether to bring his
plates south than for Moroni to travel all the way north to New York with his
load avoiding Lamanites all along the way. That is the more reasonable
conclusion.
Not only would Ether's task have logically been earier, there is also a hint
that Ether may have used teleportation by the spirit to travel the distances
which the armies of the Jaredites did travel. Ether hide in a single
cave while all these battles took place, at least the abridged record of
Moroni leads some to so conclude. These battles covered great distances and
involved numerous battles and battlefields. Teleportation was commonly
active in the life of Christ and the Apostles and many prophets have been
recorded to being carried away by the spirit even to exceedingly high
mountains. How else could Ether view and keep track of the vaste battles of
the Jaredites if he lived and hide by night in the same cave? But perhaps
that is also a faulty assumption concluded upon from so greatly an abridged
account as contained in the book of Ether.
Further still, Ether may have also experienced the same ergency which
Coriantumr most assuredly would have experienced, and that is to discover if
indeed the Jaredite wars had left no living soul alive but himself. In
either event, Ether most likely did come back to the most southern regions of
the lands of the Jaredites. I must read a different Book of Mormon for I
don't recall anywhere that it states that Ether had hid his 24 plates in an
express way so that Limhi's party could find them all the way back up to
the hill Ramah. Logically Ether's plates need not be hidden anywhere at all
near that stinking place in the midst of the dead of that last battle about a
remote hill. The Jaredite dead lay upon the earth from the southern most
city of the Jaredites. Limhi's discovery group found the destroyed city and
the records and that group of dead is the more logical conclusion.
Now Mormon's vast store of records were said to have been buried in the hill
Cumorah. The Book of Mormon states it to be so. And that is exactly
according to Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young and others, where Joseph Smith and
Oliver Cowdery did still find them, in that hill in New
York. They were buried there before the final great battle of the
Nephites fowled the land, water and air of Cumorh. Ether, would have gotten
himself out of there by whatever means, I am sure. Surely he could not have
buried them all and cleaned up the place to make it livable for himself. And
he would have taken his 24 plates with him south until he found a place to
secure the records per God's command, where they could be found by Limhi's
party. If I were Ether, I just might leave them in the temple or some other
public building given the choice. But consider that Ether was not given the
choice but instructed of the Lord what to do. And we do not have the
particulars of exactly the conditions under which Limhi's party found them.
We don't even know who lead Limhi's party. Righteous Gideon comes to mind.
Certainly the Lord's hand was in the mix in leading whoever found them, as
they contained 'the vision of all' and were extremely important records to be
maintained. We just don't have those details, especially as Dr. Sperry's
opinion would biasly so present them. There is no firm foundation of facts
upon which students could readily argue. There is only assumed and
presupposed facts of fiction. It is a very condensed abridgement after all.
So what logic is there in demanding a convincing rebuttal to something no one
knows the details about? And the distances thrown in concerning the lands of
Zarahemla, Nephi, and Cumorah have nothing to do with finding of the 24
plates. We have just defused the necessity that the records where at Cumorah
at all when found. There is no factual premise in it other than Sperry
suggests it that way for his own purposes of discrediting Cumorah. They are
just thrown in as a smoke screen of smoke and mirrors to make the point more
complicated to handle. All in all the failure on this point is the failure to
state it precisely, objectively, and cleanly to begin with. Dr. Sperry did
not do that. And his biased premise shows his own closed mind upon the matter.
And one last thing, the Land of Desolation again. There were differing
definitions and inferences in the term the 'Land of Desolation' just as there
where in the 'Land of Zarahemla.' In one reference all of the land north of
the narrow neck was considered the 'Land of Desolation' or the desolate land.
Later when there became the city of Desolation, the more limited inference
was the immediate land just round about this city of Desolation. That must
be understood for the Book of Mormon clearly establish that in the day of
Mormon there was the land of Moron and Shim and other lands between the then
land of Desolation and the hill where Mormon took all the records from to
later convey them to and secure them even further north in the land of
Cumorah.
Now, since one of the weaknesses of the Nephite record and/or Joseph Smith's
translation of it, was not to clearly delineate precisely what was being
inferred each time concerning the 'land of Desolation, who is to say what is
what on this point either? Let Dr. Sperry read between the lines as he may.
It does not make it so just because Dr. Sperry thinks it so. So you are down
to opinions not facts in the very premise of this point which makes agruing
it a faulty proposition. If you don't accept Dr. Sperry's premise, you have
not accepted the challenge. If you accept Dr. Sperry's opinionated premise
you are bound to conclude as he has led you to conclude. And if you don't
accept his opinionated premise, then he can argue that you where unable to
prove him wrong. The whole test breaths of conjecture and faulty opinionated
contrivance. And is neither 'open minded' nor 'objective' upon Dr. Sperry's
part to so 'mislead' his students in accepting it in the first place as being
the true facts of the matter.
Remember, two opposing minds on a matter may debate it forever. They both
may be 'logically' in their arguments. Neither may in fact be correct. And
when even the basis for the argument is itself faulty, what truely viable
conclusions could you ever expect. I would expect the 'professor' set the
rules and the students could only comply with them and still be in the
professor's good graces. A professor who professes to be 100% correct all of
the time, usually is not. Remember, according to Sperry, no graduate student
was ever able to prove him wrong.
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3. The implication of Mormon 1-5. If one will study carefully these chapters, it will be found that in Mormon's account of the last great struggles between the Nephites and Lamanites, the former were driven steadily into the "land northward" (Mormon 2:29), that is, into the land of Desolation in which Limhi's men found the last battlefields of the Jaredites (Alma 22:30-32). And notice that the last cities and landmarks mentioned by Mormon are "the city Desolation" "the city Teancum", "the city Boaz," "The Hill Shim," (where Mormon picked up the record of the Nephites) and "the city of Jordan." (Mormon 4:13, 14, 19, 20, 23; Mormon 5:3) All of these places including, "the city of Jordan," the last town mentioned by Mormon to which the Nephites fled, are clearly in the land of Desolation in Middle America. How likely is it that the whole Nephite nation, including women and children, would make a long, last journey of at least 2,500 miles from region of the city of Jordan to have a final battle with the Lamanites in what is now the state of New York? (Mormon 6:1-15) Militarily, such a move would waste the strength and resources of a people already exhausted. Cumorah must have been a place somewhere near the region of Jordan in the land of Desolation. |
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Answer Three: Again the poorly premised point
holds but sand to build upon. The Book of Mormon never does state that
Limhi's men found the 'last battlefields of the hill Ramah'. So again it
begins with smoke and mirrors to which you are suppose to argue. What is
clear in Mormon's last chapters is that he greatly abridged his account and
left much out so great and horrible were the events that where occurring.
Mormon's letter to Moroni, recorded in Moroni 9 but give one small snapshot
of the grossness of the matters. Moroni was still in a land further north to
which Mormon would write his last epistle to his son concerning the state of
affairs.
Logically Moroni chapter 9, Mormon's last letter, fits nowhere but from
Mormon during his failed defense at Jordan. And all of Mormon's retreats
before had not yet reached Moroni's lands where Moroni was still preaching
the faith, having his own calling from God. Mormon was still then attempting
to protect the Nephite people further north from the invading Lamanite. And
Mormon then told Moroni of one of the gross atrocities that the Nephites
themselves where guilty of and that Mormon feared that the Nephites where no
longer worthly of the Lord's saving hand.
These atrocities of the Nephites paled the offering of human sacrifice and
the feeding of human flesh to women and children which the Lamanites where
doing. It is of little wonder that Mormon did not detail all of the cities,
lands, and atrocities occuring. Neither did he detail exacltly when Moroni
and all the other Nephites from all the other lands and cities further north
where gathered up in their continual retreat to the north as they where being
wiped from the face of the earth as the dew before the sun in front of the
ever advancing Lamanites. And if they did not retreat fast enough, the
Lamanites would kill them.
The Lands of Moriantum and Sherrizah where just two among the other city
strongholds which made up the 'Jordan defense.' And it was from this point
that the nature of the war changed as Nephites began to dissent over unto the
Lamanites which they had not previously done. And it was from this point on
that the Lamanites would not kill all, but began to accept dissenters of the
Nephites if they would deny Christ and join with them. Mormon refers to
these current dissenters and that many more would discent. And even at this
point at Jordan, in Mormon's letter to Moroni, Mormon speaks of the the
'protected land of the Nephites' still north before them. In which Moroni was
still preaching the gospel and where pockets of the Church were to be found
still faithful amoungst the over whelming general wickedness of the Nephites.
And even at this point of the colapse of Jordon did Mormon allude to the
Nephites possibly repenting and still surviving in these lands north of Jordan
if they would turn to the Lord, but he had no reasonable hope that they would.
Still north of Jordan, which was north of Shim, was Moroni appart from the
war, preaching the gospel to the Nephites in the cities of the 'protected
lands' north of Jordon. Moroni was yet to join Mormon in his retreat. And
then there is Zelph in Illinois, and Cumorah in New York, and the
Country South, which was not the land South which the last few remaining
Nephites fled to. They did not flee back into the mist of the Lamnaites in
Zarahemla in the land southward. That would mean certain death, espcially as
they had to travel the confines of the narrow pass. They fled to the 'country
south' which is the lands of the southern states, and that is where they were
still hunted down.
That is more reasonable. Dr. Nibley at the beginning of this page sets out a
very conviencing presentation of such a 10 year long retreat. The early
Mormons where persecuted and retreat over 1000 miles in a 'summer' season to
populate Salt Lake. Lewis and Clarke travels some 4000 miles in less than
two years. The 'Trail of Tears' was marched by the Indian nation in one
short and bloody winter season of over 1000 miles. Just how distant could a
retreating society travel over ten years, 374 to 385 A.D., in order to
try to escape the advaning hords of hate filled Lamanites from the city of
Desolation at the mouth of the narrow pass of the narrow neck to the last
great battlefield at Cumorah? Was it just a few days journey from the
narrow neck as now prescribed by the Mesoamerican 'theory'? Or was it great
and vast distances over the span of 10 years of war and retreat and being
wiped off of the face of the earth as dew before the sun, as Mormon described
it to be? (See the March of Blood)
But Moroni did eventually join with his father Mormon militarially at some
point. It was not until after the failed Jordan defense and it is not a part
of Mormon's or Moroni's record, as Mormon had refused to write of it due to
the grossness of it. He stopped giving us the final bloody details of their
further retreat. There was four years (380, 381, 382, and 383) past the
'city' (not 'town' as Sydney contrives to mislead) of Jordan of which there
is no record of until the very last year of gathering in 384, and the scenes
around Cumorah in 385.
Again Desolation, if what is meant as the land of Desolation being defined
as all of the land northward, then assuredly Cumorah was within that. If the
land of Desolation is to mean just the lands in the region of the City of
Desolation, then just as assuredly Cumorah was not in that region. That
'Desolation' was destroyed and passed by, as was Teancum and many other towns,
and villages even before the defense which occured at Boaz. And then passed
Boaz were many other lands, cities, towns and villages passed including the
lands of Jashon, Shem, and Shim. And then the region of Jordan where only a
momentary stand was made where their where another number of Nephite
strongholds and cities such as Sherrizah and Moriantum. And from thence they
where still four to five more years from Cumorah, and from that point on
Mormon was no longer talking about the horrible details except one sneak peek
as a very little was preserved in one letter to his son Moroni of the fall of
the Jordan defense.
Dr. Sperry is hung up on distances and Mormon's refusal to give the 'bloody'
details in his abridgement. So consider the distances coverable in 5 years
from 379 AD to 384 AD. How likely is it that the saints of Mormonism would
travel over a 1000 miles across the plains and thousands of miles from Europe
just to come to a dusty western desert town in Utah? Not very likely. So how
likely is it that the Indians on the 'Trail of Tears' would travel from the
East Coast over a 1000 miles to Indian Territory? So how likely is it that
western settlers would travel over 2000 miles along the Oregon trail to
relocate? So how likely is it that Lehi would travel from Jerusalem to
America? So how likely is it that Mulek would do the same? How likely is it
to build an ark and fill it with animals and weather a global flood coming to
rest half a world away? How likely is it for the earth to be divided in the
days of Peleg. How likely is it for the children of Israel to walk across the
Red Sea in the midst of the waters turned back? How likely is it for one man
to redeem a fallen world as did Christ? And how likely is it for a farm boy
named Joseph to see Gods and Angels in restoring the gospel? It is not a
matter of 'how likely' a thing is according to some one's opinion to judge it.
It is a matter of what was and what is. If it was and is, it was and is
regardless of the likelihoods of Dr. Sydney's opinionated scholarly mind upon
it.
4. The implications of Ether 9:3. Moroni tells us that when the Lord warned the good Jaredite King Omer to flee for his life,
Omer departed out of the land with his family, and traveled many days, and came over and passed by the hill of Shim, and came over by the place where the Nephites were destroyed, and from thence eastward, and came to a place which was called Ablom, by the seashore, and there he pitched his tent.
(Italics mine.)The "hill of Shim" sounds a familiar note, because it was the place in Middle America where the prophet Ammaron hid the Nephite record. (Mormon 1:3) And when Moroni mentions in such a casual way that Omer passed from the Hill Shim "and came over by the place where the Nephites were destroyed, " it is hard to believe that Cumorah was not in the same general region as the Hill. This is especially so when Moroni explains that Omer's friend Nimrah.
. . . gathered together a small number of men, and fled out of the land, and came over and dwelt with Omer. (Ether 9:9)
How easy is it to believe that Nimrah and his men "came over [2,500 miles!] and dwelt with Omer" in what is now New York? No, the evidence of these two verses (Ether 9:3, 9) almost force one to acknowledge that the "place where the Nephites were destroyed" was close to the Hill Shim in the land of Desolation.
Answer Four: If I where to state that
'Lewis and Clark traveled many days, and came over and passed across the
Mississippi River and came over the Rocky Mountains by the place where the
Saints would one day dwell, and from thence westward, and came to a place by
the western seashore, and there pictched their tents.' Would that not be the
same as reporting in abridged form the epic exploration of these two men,
which they performed with a small number of other men? Does this mean that
the Mississippi River is necessarily near to the Rocky Mountains which is near
to the West Coast so Lewis and Clark's expedition was but a short distance to
travel and the Missippippi river is near the west coast of the United States?
Oft times when a condensation or abridgement occurs, such as that as Moroni's
was of some 1000 to 2000 year history of the Jaredites in but a few chapters,
time, space and distances become so distorted and condensed that the unweary
reader begins to error in judgement without knowing the truth of the lay of
the land.
Moroni's account of the Jaredites was just such an abridgement as nearly 2000
years was place into such a short little book as Ether. It was a condensation,
a reader's digest version. Lewis and Clark traveled over 2000 miles and back
again, traveling many days for a total of over 4000 miles. What pioneer and
early settler of the west didn't come over the wide Mississippi and come
to or pass by the Rocky Mountains on their way west? That is a casual enough
statement. Does that make the Mississippi River right up next to Salt Lake
City or just a small amount of miles away? Given the statements of early
Church leaders to the details of just where Cumorah is, I have no problem
whatsoever accepting the distances. But Sperry and others obviously do. They
have become smarter than their leaders and have by their own dissection and
study of the matter formed their own opinions on the matter.
Just what all did the Kingdom of Omer entail? The Empire of the Inca went
from Columbia, through Ecuador, through Peru, and on down into Bolivia.
That's a 2000 mile sized kingdom right there. And if Omer had to leave his
Kingdom and flee for his safety who is to say just how far he had to flee to
escape clear of the realm? Mulek traveled half a world to escape the empire
of Babylon. Did Mulek have to travel so far? No. Was it even reasonable
for Mulek's party to take the son of the Jewish King so great a distance away?
No. But did it happen? And the only reason we know the distances, is that
we know where Jerusalem is and where America is. Who knows exactly where
the cities of the Jaredites where, without personal speculation?
Mulek's troop did flee from Jerusalem across the seas to the other side of
the world before they felt safe from the reaches of Babylon. Not reasonable
but it happened. Just how far Omer so fled to safety, Dr. Sperry would
still leave him in the regions of Central America, a few weeks at most from
his enemy. So how far is far enough? And the only evidence given here that
forces such a conclusion is that of prior opinion and a mind that cannot
appreciate the effects of an abridged condensed record.
(An added point I must insert here is that of the concept of a Mesoamerican
Cumorah. It is totally illogical that Mormon's half million Nephite
survivors would not have fled to the 'far reaches' of the land in an attempt
to survive, rather than to set themselves up a day and a half's journey for a
Nephite and a few day's march for a Lamanite army from the stronghold
homelands of the Lamanites. To avoid possible extinction and likely captivity
Mulek and Lehi traveled the world. Liberty and Life are great motivating
forces. The Saint traveled from New York to Salt Lake City in 17 years. With
thousands of miles of North America to their rear, why would the logic have
been to stand a few days journey from your enemy just to allow him to
slaughter you? The Nephite retreat was over 10 years from the Narrow Neck to
Cumorah, and the Lamanite nation was pressing them all the way with war
and killing all who did not flee fast enough or were not gathered in all
along the way. The Saints had some periods of rest in locations along
their way that lasted for years at times. According to Mormon's record the
Nephites had no such year after year luxury. Now were is the contrasting
logic in that? The Nephites would travel only 100 miles with relentless
armies constantly pressing upon them? All the mob persecution the saints
faced was not of such as armies constantly and murderously pressing upon you
every part of the journey. Now logically, so persued, would not the Nephites
have traveled great distances? Surely greater distances than just 100 miles
in 10 years. Maybe a 100 miles or more in just 10 of those days Ten years
is 3650 days and that is less than 2 miles a day on average from Panama to
New York. Then again ten years is 3650 days and that is 50 yards or 150
feet a day for the 100 miles distance. To me, I think my flight would not be
swift enough to avoid the Lamanite murderous army if I only ran 50 yards and
stopped. A person can travel 50 yards in a matter of seconds, less than one
minute. Is Dr. Sperry and Dr. Sorenson asking me to believe that the
Nephites out ran the Lamanites over 10 years by just traveling an average of
less than a minute a day to escape destruction? I think not. I cannot
accept the logic of that.)
5. The implication of Ether 14, 15. These two chapters deal with the last great battles of the Jaredites in which Coriantumr is faced by his foes, led in succession by the brother of Shared (Gilead), Lib, and Shiz. The observant reader will notice (Ether 14:6, 11-13) that Coriantumr confronted Lib in battles in the land of Moron, even on the seashore (doubtless the Pacific). Now where was the land of Moron?
Now the land of Moron, where the king dwelt, was near the land which is called Desolation by the Nephites. (Ether 7:6; cf. Alma 22:30-32; italics mine.)
Where were the last great battles of the Jaredites taking place? Obviously in the land of or near the first inheritance of that people, near "the land which is called Desolation by the Nephites," a long way, as every Book of Mormon student knows, from what is now Cumorah in the state of New York. One would have to be very credulous, indeed, to believe that Coriantumr and Shiz would lead their already exhausted armies about 3,000 miles from the region of Moron to fight their very last battles around the Hill Ramah in what is now New York state. The logistical problems for both armies would be immense and completely ridiculous to assume.
Answer Five: So Sydney says without knowing me,
that I am 'very credulous' and 'completely ridiculous' if I do not agree with
his conclusions here. Then so must he have been back in 1947 when he was
writing LDS Chruch Sunday School manuals when he wrote and believed just the
opposite then. And so also was any graduate student to have been prejudged to
be if they attempted to disprove Sydney according to his challenge. Sounds
fair, the 'professor' rules and his predispossed bias rules, such is the
world of the Ivory Tower even at BYU's graduate school of religious studies.
And so I am, a fool too for taking exception to the great Dr. Sydney B.
Sperry. No prejudice and subjective myopic professor here, wouldn't you say?
Sydney continues to muddle the issue with his own definition of what the
Land of Desolation should mean. Forget that many a scholar has read and
maintains that the Land of Desolation in one respect, the general respect,
included everything north of the narrow neck. Later it became just the Land
about the Nephite city of Desolation, which the Nephites built. There was
never a city or land of Desolation during the time of the Jaredites. And the
term Land of Desolation had different meanings and inferences to the Nephites
through time just as the term Land of Zarahemla did. Zarahemla was the
'nation' of the Nephites is one sense. Zarahemla was the land region of the
valley of Sidon in another sense, Zarahemla was the immediate land round
about the city of Zarahemla in another sense, and Zarahemla was just the
'town' as Sydney might make it or the 'great city' of Zarahemla as the Book of
Mormon makes it in another sense. But it is clear that Sydney's mind is
preset regardless of any student answers that may have been returned.
Sydney was already calling them 'credulous' and 'completely ridiculous' if
they did not believe as he so opinionately did believe. A nice objectively
stated premise for debate, wouldn't you say?
The empires of Europe fought across the nations of Europe and beyond and such
accounts must now also be condemned as being 'credulous' and 'completely
ridiculous.' For whatever reason, Dr. Sperry seems to have an ax to grid. I
am not exactly sure with whom, but his students fell prey to his obsession,
which contradicted the position of the General Authorities of the Chruch
concerning where Cumorah really was.
Granted Moron was near, 'not next to', the Land about the Nephite City of
Desolation as reported by Moroni in the time of Moroni. Throwing in the
seemingly comparative reference of Alma 22 with Ether 7 is but a misdirecting
smoke screen. Mormon wrote that description of the land. And we must suppose
that he wrote it giving what he considered the land to have been during the
time of Alma the Younger and the sons of King Mosiah. It is mixing of apples
and oranges to presume the definition of the land of desolation in the time
of Alma to be the same as described by Moroni in the book of Ether some 500
years later.
The history of the United States experienced some what of a similar matter.
The early 'thirteen colonies or states' where first established to possess
unlimited western boundries to the extent that such states as North Carolina
did once extend into what is to day the state of Tennessee. So at one point
in Nephite history the land of Desolation did extend ever northward during the
days of Alma and the sons of Mosiah. But by the time of Moroni, the land of
Desolation had a much more limited definition. It was just that land limited
to and defined by the city of Desolation, only upon the south of the land
northward. This hast to be understood where with Moroni spoke by the 400 A.D.
date when there where many lands which the Nephites had divided the land
north into by Moroni's day. Thus Moroni's statement that Moron was 'near'
the land of Desolation no more than makes Moron near the regions of such as
Boaz and Jashon.
Further, the record of Moroni being what it was, a condensed abridgement, is
no solid basis upon which to judge the spaces and distances of the entire
lands of the Jaredites. These lands were never given or discussed by Moroni
in any degree of detail in his very condensed and abridged reader's digest of
the Jaredite records. There just isn't any solid basis whatsoever to make any
kind of conclusive decision one way or another here based on information
present. It is like telling a child with limited knowledge, experience
and out side exposure to prove to you the earth is not flat. Absurd as it
may sound, such limited opinion did once abound that the earth was flat.
Without all the details and facts, which just aren't in Moroni's abridgement
there is no basis for Dr. Sperry's belief without him reading assuptions
between the lines of his own creation. There is just no real solid
foundation to build upon to disprove him when he has already rejected
the teachings of the authorities on the matter in lew of his own contrivance.
Consider the little battle began by Hitler. It began small and before
one knew it, it spread through all of Europe, it then reached across the sea
to England and North Africa, then it took on Russia, and America. Then Japan
became allied and the whole of the Pacific Ocean joined in the war. Granted
that was a world war which the Jaredites did not have the means to undertake,
and they where bound by the boundries of what was accessible by land. But it
was a great big land and they where not limited to just Central America.
Consider the great empires of Europe. Roman spread from the Island of Briton
on the west to beyond the reaches of Israel to the east. The Inca included
from south of Bolivia to the reaches of Columbia.
Many of the great kingdoms of the earth were of such great size and only
limited by their neighboring populated countries that could resist them. The
Jaredites did not have such resistance of confining nations to contend with
as did many of the eastern kingdoms. They had all the land to themselves and
Dr. Sperry and Dr. Sorenson would teach and contrive that they did not and
that they did limit themselves to just such land areas that would for the
most part be comparable to one of our large states of the United States. I
find that too confining and not consistant with the great kingdoms of the
earth. And I have to conclude that the Jaredites where one of the great
kingdoms of the earth and it was a large and vast kingdom. All came from
Adam and then Noah's parenthood, and the population does explode and to fill
the earth over thousand year periods and the Jaredites had nearly two
thousand years to spread and multiply and fill all of North America. And they
did.
Now the point is, that which began with Lib in Moran which was near to the
land of Desolation which bordered upon the narrow passage and the narrow neck
did exculate. Dr. Sperry attempt to confine the whole to the land of Moron,
but that is not even what Moroni's very condensed abridgement states. And it
did involve all of the lands of the Jaredites and all of the world of the
American continent, the dwelling places of the Jaredites. Which land had
vastly been changed by the great destruction at the coming of Christ, but did
obtain enough similarity to still have recognizable as Cumorah with Ramah.
Now, most all of these geographic details, Moroni's abridgement never does
take time to report. It would have been a volume of 'War and Peace'
dimensions if he had. And we are to presume conclusions based upon such lack
of information as did Sperry? NOT! But even Moroni's abridgement does more
than just mention Moron. Chapter 14 of Ether begins with Coriantumr living
in the 'wilderness' and gaining ever increasing support to his army from the
various peoples of the land who would fight against the Empire of Lib. Lib's
ruled from the land of Moron. The Roman Empire was ruled from almost an
island shaped like a boot.
Gilead had displaced Coriantumr and did place himself upon the throne of
Coriantumr in the southern kingdom in the land of Moron, which was still not
so far south as the 'borders' of the land and the land known by Moroni as
Desolation, about the city of Desolation. Thus the land of Moron did not
include the land where the great city of commerce was which lead to the
land southward where the Jaredites would 'harvest' from, as a land of
wilderness, leaving it as a 'natural preserve' to be so drawn upon, having
filled the entire of the land northward.
Now it is presumed that being dethroned, that Coriantumr did dwell in
the 'wilderness' of Akish. Akish was likely an uninhabited wilderness
due to its harsh 'desert' conditions. From this wilderness, Coriantumr
assembles the enemies of Gilead. Gilead gains forces from those of secret
combinations, which was his great mistake, as one of the secret combination
leaders did murder Gilead and place himself upon the throne. This was Lib.
Coriantumr next comes out of the land of wilderness and contends against
Lib. And Coriantumr's army did press upon the forces of Lib until Lib had
fled to the 'borders' of the land, which were upon the seashore. This sound
much like Coriantumr did force Lib to flee to the land which bordered upon
the southern narrow passage which lead into the land southward, by the sea
shore. Dr. Sperry misdirects by stating it to be the Pacific sea shore when
in fact it was more likely the east coast in the land region about the
city of Desolation which was by the most accessible narrow passage which led
into the land southward.
Lib was able to rally his forces and he did force Coriantumr to once again
retreat into the wilderness of Akish. In the course of Coriantumr's retreat,
Coriantumr gathers all the people of that 'quarter of the land' with him as
he fled. Lib pursues him, forcing Coriantumr out upon the 'plains' of
Agosh. It is there that after gathering a quarter of the lands people to
him, that Coriantumr is able to contend successfully against Lib. And Lib,
who is of great size and strength over all others of the people is there
slain by Coriantumr.
Here already we have four land regions defined, the wilderness of Akish, the
land of Moron, the regions by the borders and the sea shore, and the plains
of Agosh. Moroni's abridgement, as conveyed by Dr. Sperry, makes them sound
to an unsuspecting reader as being all round about the land of Moron. But
this is not necessarily the case in such an abridge account. According to
what else is stated, this is on the one hand an entire quarter of the over
all greater lands of the Jaredites. And Coriantumr had drawn upon many
cities of the Jaredites to bring forces unto himself for just this one
quarter of the land.
In this 'quarter of the land' there is the land of Moron, a great wilderness
of Akish in which to dwell and hide and support a great growing army in.
Moron is merely 'near' the Nephite land of Desolation, It is not 'next' to it,
which precludes at least one unmentioned interining land between 'desolation'
and Moron. This adds another unnamed land to this quarter of the land. Then
from the wilderness of Akish, Coriantumr gathers together all the people he
can upon his line of retreat from Akish to the plains of Agosh. This precludes
at least one other unnamed land region between the wilderness of Akish and
the plains of Agosh from where Coriantumr did obtain the people. This brings
us to a total of six land regions. (1) 'Desolation', (2) the land between
Desolation and Moron, (3) Moron, (4) the wilderness of Akish, (5) the land
regions between Akish and the plains of Agosh, and (6) the plains of Agosh.
That to begin with is much more land mass than which Dr. Sperry places as the
foundation of his premise. And there is no guarantee that in such an
abridged record as Moroni's was, that may events, time and places where
left out of the very condensed and abridged record which he did write. And we
have just been in one quarter of the land and we have also just bearly gotten
to Shiz.
Shiz sees that the common people are being gathered together by Coriantumr.
Thus Shiz goes on a rampage summarized in two verses. Shiz begins to
destroy 'many cites', burning them to the ground and being an agricultural
based people, this includes a scorched earth policy which will leave not
trees of forest left in the land from which the later occupying Nephites can
use to build their cities with. Truely Shiz was 'sweeping the land clean
before him'. And by now, Shiz has pursued after Coriantumr even further and
beyond the plains of Agosh, likely on into the next quater of the land.
At this point the people begin to flock together in 'armies' for survival.
And they either fear Shiz and do flee unto the army of Shiz to avoid being
so destroyed before him. Or they desire to not live under such a leader as
Shiz and they do flee unto Coriantumr. Thus the battle cry had vastly
exculated until it is cause for action throughout all of the lands of the
Jaredites.
And Moroni reports in one simple verse that 'so great and lasting had been
the war, and so long had been the scene of bloodshed and carnage, that the
whole face of the land was covered with the bodies of the dead.' An awful
lot is being left out here, cities are being destroyed. lands are being
swept clean, there is a very long extended period of war and bloodshed and
carnage. And it covered the 'whole face' of the land with dead bodies. And
still we have not arrived at Ramah. This 'long extended period of war' was
also proceeding so swiftly, that no time was being spent to bury or despose
of the dead.
It was now, after all of this had already occured, that Shiz pursues
Coriantumr eastward. This is not just a small movement contained in the
already long and extended war of death. It was a major manuver which did
extend the pursuit even to the borders of the seashore. This was not
that first sea shore of the days of Lib. Many lands and cities of those
regions already stood in absolute ruin. And since Shiz's movement of pursuit
would have been from south to north, any escaping domestic animals where
already seeking food and refuge toward the land southward where Lehi and
Mulek's colonies would then find them.
With the southern quarter and more already destoryed, Shiz now pursued
Coriantumr in the land which stood to the north. And he pursued him to as
far as the people and the armies of Shiz could flee, all the way to the east
coast of North America. The Jaredites would have populated the land as
far north as could be year round livable, avoiding the lands of winter. If
any Jaredites did survive, they would have had to become acustomed to living
in a frozen winter land for much of the year.
With their backs up against the eastern seaboard, the armies of Coriantumr
really begin to fight for their lives. Under such conditions, the out
numbered armies of Coriantumr begin to wage great destructions upon the
people of Shiz. The battle last for three days, and the peole of Shiz, while
still greater in number began to be frightened and they did flee before
the armies of Coriantumr. Yet in their retreat, they continued to sweep the
inhabitants off before them if they would not join the army of Shiz.
This carnage of again continueing to sweep the land clean continued in
Shiz's retreat until Shiz reached the valley of Shurr near the hill Comnor.
And upon the hill Comnor, Coriantumr sounds a trumpet call unto the armies
of Shiz to come forth to battle. Shiz had been able to gather more people
to his army so he did go forth against Coriantumr. The first time Shiz was
driven back and his armies had to regroup. The second time also. But the
third time the battle became exceedinly sore. And Shiz and Coriantumr fought
hand to hand with Shiz inflicting many deep wounds upon Coriantumr that
Coriantumr fainted from loss of blood and was carried off as being dead. Yet
Shiz's army also suffered so greatly that Shiz commands his people not to
pursue the retreating armies of Coriantumr.
As Coriantumr recovers he considers his position. About 2 million of his
immediate people had been killed in the battles and about 2 million of the
people of Shiz had also been killed. This is 4 million people and we are not
likely even counting those who never did join unto either side but were just
butchered by the 'scorched earth' policy of Shiz, which prevented the
apparently more popular Coriantumr from obtaining even more people to his
cause and gaining an advantage over Shiz. So consider some 5 million people
being killed. The estimated Indian population of North America at the time
colonization of America was only some where between 2 to 3 million people.
Further consider that such an 'agriculturaly based' population of such an
'ancient technology' would certainly make it unlikely to have been so limited
is land occupancy to have just resided in the confines of Mesoamerica as the
theorist of such would claim. And we still haven't come to Ramah even yet.
At this point Coriantumr sees the writing on the wall so to speak and sees
that if they continue in this course, extinction of the Jaredite society is
quite likely. He send a letter to Shiz offer a peace proposal that he
Coriantumr would give up the kingdom if Shiz would allow the war to end. But
Shiz did demand the life of Coriantumr which did stir the people of
Coriantumr up against the people of Shiz and the people of Shiz were also
again stirred up. And the peace talk was ended and a battle insued.
And when Corianturm saw that he was about to fall he fled before Shiz to
the waters of Ripliancum, which is 'large or to exceed all'. This was fresh
water not the sea shore. And the water size, which may or may not have been
somewhat greater than the great lakes of today, and it intensity was the
cause of such a 'great' name being given to them. This was no marshy land
of swamps and small rivers. This was a massive configuration. Niagra Falls
comes to mind.
The tents of Coriantumr were pitched by this waters, unable to flee further,
again with their backs to the wall. Shiz pitched his tents near by. And on
the next day they came to battle which became exceedinly sore and Coriantumr
was wounded again and again fainted from loss of blood. But the armies of
Coriantumr pressed upon the armies of Shiz and beat them and Shiz did flee
before them southward to a place called Ogath. And now the armies of
Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah which was the same hill
of Cumorah where Mormon hide up the records.
And now a very extraordinary event occurred. One which if not stated so
clearly, one would speculate and wonder about. Some sort of truce must have
been entered into as time was now spent in gathering any and all the remaining
people from all the face of the land either to the cause of Coriantumr or to
the cause of Shiz. This gathering process went on for the space of 4 years.
This was no small time affair. We do not have the details of just how the
agreement proceeded and was effect upon all the remaining people of the land.
The southern most reached had already been left uninhabitable, so the
northern regions where all that was left.
Here a big presumption is made which is not supported by the scriptures.
That presumptions is that the armies of Shiz and Coriantumr did all
return and gather back together at the hill Ramah. The scriptures do not
state this. Moroni's abridgement is mute upon this subject. And the
unsupported assumption has always been that they did return to Ramah.
The scriptures merely state that once the four year gathering had ended
and all the people had been gather to one side or the other, they did
march forth against each other. with women and children being armed with
weapons. And after two solid days of such sore battle and death, Coriantumr
again wrote to Shiz to take the kingdom and spare the lives of the people.
But Shiz would have none of it.
And they marched forth again for three more solid days of battle and death
until there was only 52 people of Coriantumr and 69 people of Shiz which
did remain at the end of the fifth day of battle. And they came to battle
again and at the end of the 6th day there were 32 people of Shiz and only
27 peole of Coriantumr which did remain. And now the record states that only
men remained and they where all large and mighty men.
And on the 7th day they fought for the space of 3 hours and they who remained
all had fainted with the loss of blood. And Coriantumr and his men when they
gained strength to walk were about to flee when Shiz arose with his men
and swore an oath that he would slay Coriantumr. And Shiz did pursue after
them but did not over take them.
So on the 8th day they did come to fight again. And they fought until all
had fallen by the sword but Coriantumr and Shiz. And Shiz fainted with the
loss of blood. Coriantumr leaned upon his sword and rested a little. And then
he smote off the head of Shiz. Then from exhaustion, Coriantumr fell to the
earth and appeared as if he had no life. Thus Ether presumed him dead.
Moroni states that he gave less than a hundreth part account in his
abridgement of the record of Ether. But the manner of God's command to
Ether to go foreth seems to come after the deaths, so that Ether must have
had help in setting forth the last details unless Coriantumr himself had
given them when found by the people of Mulek. In which case Moroni must have
had access to not only the 24 gold plates of Ether, but also to the remaining
account of Coriantumr himself.
Now again consider, 5 million people died in the days of Shiz and Coriantumr,
and that was prior to Coriantumr's first letter requesting a peaceful
settlement well before the 4 years of gathering and days of the great final
battles of the Jaredites.
Many more died in the days of Lib, Gilead, Shared, and the secret combinations
against the people. This seems to project the populous of the Jaredites to
being well over 6 million people with perhaps as many as 10 million at the
beginning of the reign of Coriantumr.
6. The implications of the Documentary History of the Church, Vol. 2:79-80; (early edition). In these pages the Prophet Joseph Smith tells of the finding of Nephite and Lamanite, remains in Illinois, including the skeleton of a "white Lamanite, a large, thick-set man, and a man of God." This man, whose name was Zelph, "was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains." I, for one, do not doubt that both Nephites and Lamanites found their way into what is now the United States, and in the last days of the Nephites fought many fringe battles. These so-called "fringe" battles take place in every great war. But the main battles, the battles that finally determined the destiny of the Jaredites and Nephites, took place, as the Book of Mormon clearly shows (see above), around the Hill Ramah-Cumorah somewhere in Middle America near Moron, the land of the Jaredites' first inheritance.
When Moroni first showed Joseph Smith the Nephite gold plates, he doubtless called the hill in which they were uncovered, "Cumorah" after the name of the hill wherein Mormon hid the sacred records of his people prior to their last battle (Mormon 6:6). Hence the reason for two Cumorahs.
In the last edition of the Documentary History some words have been inserted into the account, the historicity of which I question. In any event, it does not change the first-hand evidence in the Book of Mormon.
(Sidney B. Sperry, Book of Mormon Compendium [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1968], 451.)
Answer Six: "Fringe" battles can happen in
places like Illinois and New York but main battles cannot? What nonsense is
that? But at least Dr. Sperry is schooled enough to know from the many
accounts that the Angel Moroni did tell Joseph Smith that the hill in which
the plates where hide and from which Joseph extracted them was the hill of
Cumorah. But the logic of why the Angel would persist is such a misleading
commentary in the presence of Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery and that they
would teach such within the Church just does not add up to accepting Dr.
Sperry's contrivance. The Book of Mormon portrays no such 'fringe' battles,
it is consistant in that matter alone, that the course was ever northward, and
as already shown far past a 100 mile distant Cumorah from the Narrow Neck.
And why would those over 2000 miles away rally and all crowd into a spot left
desolate of the ability to feed one city such as Sherrizah according to
Moroni 9? But all of a sudden after years of war torn devistation we are
suddenly given to believe that the once passed by land of Cumorah is now
capable of feeding hundreds of thousands of people? Did the Lamanites agree
to import food for the Nephites to sustain them while they gathered? I
think not. Now, to be able to feed over a quarter million Nephites and
undoubtedly a multiple of that more in Lamanites, a land of large size wih
many resource would be necessary. But again at least Dr. Sperry is schooled
enough in the Book of
Mormon to know and accept that the Nephites did extend to 'exceedingly great
distance away' and even as far north as Illinios and New York. Dr. Sorenson
will not even yield so much from his self contrived Mesoamerican model, no
matter how illogical, contraditory, and unsound it is shown to be.
The only thing that becomes clear here, is that Dr. Sperry and all other
Mesoamerican theories became of a predetermined mind that they could of
themselves desiphere the Book of Mormon Geography, and despite the teachings
of the Chruch and the illogicalness of the matter, Dr. Sperry and others have
set that aside and dissected the Book of Mormon as if all was contained there
in, ignoring that is it a highly condensed and abridged record which has left
much out. And Dr. Sperry and the others decided that they could conclusively
build a right answer themselves without any other source out side of themselves
and their Professor high degree of self obtained knowledge. This was all
done to the demise of the student is the sad thing. Dr. Sperry had a
determined mind that whatever the student could
produce was 'clearly' not acceptable to him based upon his self made opinion
and conclusions in which he lost all objectivy in the matter.
Lastely, there is no logical basis, other than Dr. Sperry's self contrived
notion, for Moroni to tell Joseph Smith that the hill in New York
was Cumorah if it was not. But at this point, all objectivity and logic is
now passed and whatever it take to mentally make up must become a fact of the
matter in order to support the over all contrived theory, What is 'doubtless'
here, is an obviously assumed assumption that has no support in any fact of
the matter but only exist in Dr. Sperry's person thoughts on the matter.
Item number six is just smoke and mirrors, and made up contrivances again.
There is no solid objectively determined hypothesis here to
defend of defeat. If you tell the instructor that his personal opinion
stinks, who's opinion do you think is going to win out? The students?
Let me now confess in closing something to Dr. Sperry's defense. In my youth, I once totally accepted the concepts of the 'traditional' views that grew out of the early church such as Cumorah in New York, the narrow neck as Panama, and Lehi's landing in Chili, much as Dr Sperry once did. Then through study and during the time after my mission in college, I became acquainted with the Central American concepts and theories. And I began to adopt them as what I believed even to the point of serious consideration of there likely being two Cumorahs. Chessman's writings became one of my mentors in the matter. The Mesoamerican theorist had poked holes in the traditional model, but when I would hear and read things which the leaders had said and learned more of the details of the Middle America theories, I also began to see such holes in those theories and I began to really search and ask what was the true Book of Mormon Geography was. I stumbled upon the book by Sister Priddis, which was completely strange to both the 'Traditional' and 'Mesoamerican' theories. I was impressed with Sister Venice's total honesty of effort and I could see that she was so honestly wrapped up in her work and believed it. Now I found many truths in Sister Priddis' book, yet I also found her over all conclusions totally unacceptable. But it began me thinking of just how similarly the Mesoamerican theorist are pretty much just as totally and honestly engaged in their own notions on the matter. I then concluded that it wasn't what I and any single particular person wanted or thought the Book of Mormon geography should be that made it truly what it was. Any number of positions could be and have been supported. What would make the Book of Mormon geography correct was one to be found within myself, it was to be found in what was the truth of the matter regardless of what I personally contrived it to be.
At that point I began looking outside myself to others and the Lord if you will. And the more I looked outside myself and allowed the external facts of what others had to say be considered, rather than just relying on my own opinion of the matter, the more information I could find. Truth clings unto truth and it is not self opinionated and self determined no matter how smart one is. And even as one reviews what has been said, what begins to stick is was is felt from an outside source rather than from within one's own determined mind on the matter.Then what became obvious was that one of the main crux of the matter was, was what the Book of Mormon said and what the Lord's anointed had said that mattered and would be the true determinants in the matter. If I read the Book of Mormon just of myself, I could twist and turn and suppose any number of things and make them fit whatever as where other theorist doing. I was mentally clever enough to do that also. And I could see in others that they where doing it too. I found that I could even convince myself to believe in what I contrived. But that didn't make it true.
In High School debate I had learned it did not matter what was the real truth of the matter, it was how cleverly and well one presented the arguments at hand who won the debate. It was he who knew the most and most recent dogma on the matter that won the debate. It was not the truth that won, it was the 'lawyer's' argument that determined the case. So it is with the Book of Mormon geography and the top debaters today. And I'd have to say that those in the FARMS organization built around John L. Sorenson are at the top of that heap currently. But I do not like what I see, as it is not objective. And it is what is subjective that wins the debate even in that arena today. I must conclude that there is no objective research going on at FARMS today relative to the geography of the Book of Mormon, which considers viable alternatives as opposing positions are argumentatively discounted even those stated by the authorities of the Church. I only see in FARMS a singular manipulative effort of compliance to a preconceived model that bends the interpretations of the 'book' to fit the expectations necessary to fit the model. There are none at FARMS who foster another point of view to the point of objective study of the matter. There is no basic opposition to the Mesoamerican theory there despite that fact that the Church historically and even today does not subscribe to a two Cumorah general acceptance. To FARMS, I would suggest their honest efforts would be served immensely to begin to foster such a tolerance and inclusion of at least one other model of the Book of Mormon geography as their current position is myopically subjective and lacks true objectivity on the matter. And they, like Sperry have began in the game of 'ivory tower name calling' which is the business of calling any who do not accept their 'academic' level of Mesoamerican understanding and acceptance as being mere 'hobbyists' and not true 'students' of the Book of Mormon. Thus I am left to suppose that the likes of Marion G. Romney is but a Book of Mormon hobbyist to them from what they say?
I have abandoned the concept of 'he that has the 'most' wins.' John L. Sorenson says that most Book of Mormon students show a preference for the Mesoamerican theory? If so that is only more and in my mind a sad case. It means they are not reading, studying and believing their Religion 121 and 122 manuals which I just bought a copy of today August 4, 2001 from the LDS distribution center page 136 where Marion G. Romney is quoted, stating where Cumorah really is. But they may have supposed themselves beyond such simple belief and have chosen instead to follow after the likes of John L. Sorenson than to follow the prescribed manual provided by the Church. The most intellectual arguments do not win. The most talented debater with the most smoke and mirrors does not win. The most points and most powerful arguments do not guarantee truth in the matter. Truth is what matters and is what wins even if supported only by the few. And I believe I have found more truth in matters of the Book of Mormon geography by listening to and following the Authorities of the Church than following the overwhelming compilation of 'theories' and 'models' upon the matter at any academic level. And these Church Authorities include the likes of Mormon and Moroni and the words of the Book of Mormon, as will as all the words of the Holy Prophets ancient and modern. In so doing, more of the traditional model prevails as I understand. The Chili landing site gets pre-empted by the ascribed words of the Prophet Joseph Smith himself. The one and only Hill Cumorah, stays the one and only Hill Cumorah in the state of New York as taught by the Church and the Church Authorities over the years. And a truly 'objective' attempt at building an internal map apart from bias and prejudice and self contrivance becomes most enlightening. So at best I classify myself as a 'Neo-Traditionalist.' I accept the traditional only to the point that truth supports it.